Is this existence the only life we have? no after life… no heaven… no hell? is there karma? is there reincarnation? is there soul? Is there anything other than the 80 or so years most of us will “live”? What are the implications?
Russell’s (Son) position:
This is it. My 28,105 days are all that I have. People might remember some version of the things I said or did, others might have photos and videos of some slice of my life and some might carry my genes but I, capital I, will cease to exist when I die.
Based on that, best to live life to the fullest. That doesn’t mean become adrenaline junkie or find Buddha. To me it means just do and stop to smell the roses. Work hard, play hard… be at peace as much as is reasonable. Experience as much as possible.
I like what my grandfather said, “All you leave behind is how people remember you.” [In the response below, Mom corrects this… perhaps I remembered the quote the way I wanted to… hmmmm]
Donna’s (Mother) response:
So glad to see my father’s words recalled here. I remember them a bit differently, “When it’s all said and done, it’s only the people who will matter.” But that’s really an aside to the question here for me, since I think he was trying to tell me to live for the people and not the stuff after he had spent so many years working so hard to provide me with a good and comfortable life. He wasn’t commenting on his belief in God (which was also one of his deep values) but rather trying to guide me.
Is this life all we have? Is this it? I do not believe this physical life is it.
In fact, the last time I heard anyone say that “this is it” was when my brother and I stood at direct odds over the impending death of our dad — the man quoted by both mother and son herein.
My father was languishing on life support systems having had a very bad outcome from his surgery for pancreatic cancer. He lapsed into a coma shortly after the surgery and showed few — if any — signs that he could or would come out of the coma.
As the hours and days wore on, my brother was determined. If there was one sliver of a chance that our dad would come out of his coma, my brother wanted the life support to continue. I argued that my dad never wanted to be kept alive on life support systems when his quality of life was not likely to be outcome. I wanted his wishes honored. I wanted the machines turned off.
My brother was livid and terrified. He said things like, “Don’t get the flu around Donna, she’ll blow your brains out,” and, “I don’t know about you, but I believe this life is all we get so we have to keep him alive if there is any chance at all for life.”
I was angry, hurt but determined. I answered him, “No, I do not believe this is it. But it really doesn’t matter what you or I believe, what matters is what he (our dad) believes, and he believed in something more. He did not fear death but living a life that was without meaning.”
A day or two later when my brother could be sufficiently convinced that there was no hope for life for my dad and after my dad had then suffered mini-strokes and lots of end-of-life traumas, we finally turned off the machines.
We stood at his beside. A shell of a body that had not shown any tangible signs of life for eight days — my dad was finally to die. In the midst of those sad moments, he turned his head, opened his eyes and fixed them on mine. I reassured him that everything would be all right, just as he had reassured me so many times when I was a little girl. I told him I loved him (as we all did). And he died. The sun was visable for a few moments before the cloud covered filled in the gray skies, and it was over.
My dad was my main teacher in areas of the greater themes of my life, my value system and my overall beliefs, but he was by no means my only teacher.
It is my experience is that the deeper threads of life hold more than I can comprehend or explain without my faith. The wind, a crashing wave on the Pacific shore, a grandchild’s voice, a phrase well-written… or a the love of my father who gave up so much of what he desired to share the fruits of his work with me and to better my life.
I have so much faith in something outside of self.
Social Mode 
while your smelling the Roses ask god into your heart and soul forgive you of all your sins, believe in the cross for your salvation,,He is the only one who matters on what you did or didn’t do in life…when your dead, the living forgets all about you in a month or so,, cheers mlb
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My brother was livid and terrified. He said things like, “Don’t get the flu around Donna, she’ll blow your brains out,” and, “I don’t know about you, but I believe this life is all we get so we have to keep him alive if there is any chance at all for life.”
I was angry, hurt but determined. I answered him, “No, I do not believe this is it. But it really doesn’t matter what you or I believe, what matters is what he (our dad) believes, and he believed in something more. He did not fear death but living a life that was without meaning.”
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My view is not that of your brothers. I don’t think that you keep life going at all costs and I also agree with your dad that the worst life, to me, would be one without meaning.
Where we differ is that I do not believe and have seen no evidence, despite several tragic events in my life, that there’s “something outside of self.” Our bodies are easily “tricked” by chemicals and sensory data… which might be a benefit to survival (makes it easier to get over things if you think there’s something else…)
I am not tricked. I, too, have seen tragedy and glory and sadness and peace and much in-between that leads me to believe that there is something greater and beyond that, there is also great evil and pain.
Now, please do not confuse what I write with a blind faith in one religious viewpoint or another — as I believe religions are creations of human beings not gods.
Maybe it is in part because my own body is nowhere near perfect or that my mind is slower than I’d like or that I behave in ways that are less than attractive that I find much comfort in a faith outside of self, but I do. Perhaps folks who see themselves as more self-actualized are better able to dismiss notions of a “higher power.”
I know many intelligent people who stand in varied positions on this issue.
Each of my children represents proof to me that there is a greater spirit or power or intelligence or being. My love for my children in spite of my lack of physical or even emotional closeness seems beyond pure instinct and into the realm of spiritual love.
And my continued attachment to the on-going spirit of my father, in a very real and grounding way, has reinforced that. For me, I have found great connection with the words written about the teachings of Christ, as my dad did. This has not made me popular in the “thinking” world or in politics. But it has made me look at others in a more inclusive way and a more caring way, I think.
What would I be without the beliefs I have? I do not know. But I do not believe my life would be as interesting.
You see we’re arguing on two completely different levels. Yourargument for “proof” of spiritual connectedness relies on assuming spiritual connectedness exists. i.e. you assume anything you can’t readily explain (love of children, attachment to “on-going spirit” of father) must mean spiritual existence is real. Instead of taking the position that until you can explain you will not assume a source….
Beliefs are meaningful/powerful to us because we believe in them. it’s not the substance of the belief that carries the power. i should add that I don’t think there is something called a belief. i think we associate patterns of causes and effects and we call some collection of those beliefs.
e.g. when I read the words written about the teachings of Christ, I am calm, refreshed, relieved, connected. By extension the ideas contained in the words become associated with those other things.
This is a GROSS simplification which is why beliefs are so hard to detangle and why I suspect belief systems work so well. They make us efficient in getting through things, sticking to a plan, taking care of our children, and so forth.
love might be the most complicated word and concept we’ve ever invented. It’s probably the most efficient too…. when we say “I love you” it carries with it a TON of meaning (information, history, etc) without having to recount all the ways we love….
Didn’t know I was arguing the proof of things spiritual. Not sure that is entirely possible to argue in the affirmative or the negative. How does one prove a thing unseen? The wind exists only because of what it moves yet no one argues the wind does not exist. If there is nothing blowing in the wind that can be seen, it still blows. Of course, the particles not visible to the naken eye are evidence enough, but spiritual things also create movement — seen and unseen.
If one believes in God or in a higher intelligence or order and then acts upon those beliefs, does that reinforce the existence of the object or idea?
I still think that carrying a child and giving birth gives meaning in spiritual ways that connect me with nature and all life. Even the on-going process of raising a child and then being a part of that person’s history — good and bad — carries spiritual implications for generations to come.
I believe in God because I have seen evidence of God that supports my belief. Does that mean because others don’t believe in my spiritual God that I am mistaken, misguided or tricked?
Great issues to consider.
Yeah, there’s no way to resolve these circular arguments. the words mistaken, misguided or tricked aren’t the right words because they imply that it could be otherwise. it is logically and practically impossible to experience the world with complete knowledge… therefore we all have some gross approximation/subjective view of what is really going on. you happen to connect your dots with spiritual language and I connect mine with, well, something else. we’re both verbalizing incomplete and often wrong concepts of how it all works.
so i’m not at all claiming you’re any more or less misguided than me or anyone else.
my main claim is that I die there is no more ME. Now, I can argue that I am not much more than the collection of genes you and dad gave me, my environmental shaping and the ideas I’ve taken from others and packaged up in my way. Where in there am I? So in a sense that view I can certainly pass on to other generations and what not. My particular views, writings, values, way of being certainly lives on in various forms without me. BUT what I DO NOT believe at all is that there is some SOUL of mine that goes on after my body falls apart. There’s no afterlife. no heaven. no hell. no reincarnation in a soulful sense.
all i get are these 27,000 days.
i find great joy in this. it means these days have weight. there’s no putting anything in the bank for later. there’s no excuses to be made about why i didn’t live out loud.
you might enjoy this text if you haven’t read it before
http://www.forget-me.net/en/Gandhi/truth.txt
Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. (the Bible)
I am so glad you find joy in view of the finite in terms of your physical being and any assoicated personality or soul.
But I find joy in knowing a soul such as yours and in my belief that it is a soul born of many aspects, one of which is most definitely spiritual, in my view.
I also find joy in my belief that there is an infinite order and plan — one which I will ever work to know more fully and understand.